New Labour’s double bluff: actually quite socialist after all

“An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.” —H.L. Mencken

New Labour Soup, the snazzily-packed, dark red gloop with an oddly-familiar aftertaste that is the chosen brand of the most important 21 per cent of people ever to have graced Great Britain is an odd concoction. Decried for placing false hope in the minds of many, while concurrently denounced for failing to fulfil the different desires of many more, the story of Tony’s gang is at the very least an interesting one.

This is partly because no one has ever worked out just what the hell was going on: what did this gobble actually mean? Francis Wheen’s assertion that the Third Way “was somewhere between the Second Coming and the Fourth Dimension” remains as good as any.

One of the main reasons the New Labour product has been so hard to pin down (no back-reference to earlier analogy intended) is that, to some extent at least, they’ve stolen a lot of the policies that Old Labour spent so long fighting against. This was a bold political move and it worked really rather well. However, in doing so, it did make things terribly confusing; “whatever works” may have simultaneously made easy headline-copy and good men grumble, but it came no closer to explaining what, if anything, was happening inside Tony’s head.

Another part of the problem stems from an equally hazy concept of the old ideological terms which New Labour shelved so successfully along the road to power. They may have publicly ditched being socialists, but what did that sort of talk mean anyway?

Originally, and still holding down the top spot in most dictionary definitions, ‘socialism’ was all about the collective ownership of the means of production. Technically anything differing too wildly from this is pseudo-cheaty socialism, and is subscribed to by people keener on the name than the implications.

However, thanks to the unarguable work of people like Ludwig von Mises, and other economisty types, this hardcore-brand socialism now only exists in worlds inhabited by fairies and people whose hair-grease has seeped into their brains and caused chaos among the circuits. It is a place not too dissimilar in its delusory ways to some of the worlds envisioned by Charles Fourier and his merry band of crazy-communist underlings, for whom the move to a fully centralised economy would have ushered in a world where we would live in a grand Utopian harmony and where we would travel to work on the back of helpful animals, some of whom had now learned to talk. Another of the entertainingly eccentric early socialists, William Godwin, was probably relieved not to witness a pure socialistic revolution, as to him the socialisation of the means of production would have made mankind immortal, which would have been something of a political headache.

Leaving the nutters alone for now, however much fun they may be, socialism in its modern context (finally rubber-stamped by Labour’s ditching of Clause 4 in April 1995) is a more nebulous beast. It has stuck with tradition in being devoid of any political power outside of states with walls high enough to keep the corrupting influences of the big scary world at bay, but in pretty much every other respect it has moved on.

So what, in this day and age does being a socialist entail? One can talk of wishy-washy concepts such as ‘making people better off’, ‘lessening inequality’, ‘equal opportunities’ and the like, but these are the central goals of the stupid baby-eaters on ‘the right’ too, except they believe it’s best gone about in a different (and usually equally erroneous) manner.

The simplest way to separate the socialists from the rest actually goes back to our original definition and the concept of government interference. Fair enough, it may be suicidal to push for complete collectivisation, especially when people work so jolly hard to get one over on their neighbours, but that doesn’t stop a government from getting a bit grabby with what’s left. However, in party-political terms at least, this comes up against a rather imposing stumbling block as well, and one that illustrates one of those fascinating democratic dilemmas: the other parties like to interfere too. People like to interfere. It gives them a sense of power, a sense of belonging and a distorted sense of existence-justification. And everyone likes a bit of that.

“As Hobbes observes, all mental pleasure exists in being able to compare oneself with others to one’s own advantage… Nothing is of greater moment to a man than the gratification of his own vanity.” —Arthur Schopenhauer

Unfortunately, the same people hate to be interfered with, which can make the whole process rather destructive (not that this is intrinsically bad, as creation requires destruction, but in this context, things can get a tad messy). In a way, therefore, all party-political aspirations are in a socialist vein. This, however, apart from being horribly, (and a bit wilfully) crude, is largely wrong and gets us nowhere anyhow; and we wouldn’t want to let practice get in the way of theory either.

For ease of argument then, we’ll say modern socialism is to be seen in an overriding urge to tell people what to do, or as von Mises said: “The Socialist idea is nothing but a grandiose rationalisation of petty resentments”. On the other hand, non-socialism, or, I suppose, ‘liberal-conservatism’, if we are to revert to theoretical concepts for a second, is to be seen in stepping back and seeing how things pan out, only stepping in to stop people murdering each other and the like, believing that there has to be scope somewhere for ‘the freedom to be rubbish’, rather than simply imposing rubbishness from on high.

And herein lies the key to New Labour’s secret socialism: its legislation-happy legacy. It is not a simple proliferation of Bills (although it’s very hard to tell for sure given the role of the Lords in blocking or amending legislation, New Labour is crudely no more legislation-happy than previous governments), but rather the nature, approach and foolhardy visions that characterise the actions taken in the name of the people, almost all of which take away one freedom or another for little observable purpose.

Some people will at this point, no doubt, claim I’ve confused socialism with authoritarianism. Maybe I have: the logical conclusions of both aren’t all that far apart. However, I think not. Authoritarianism tends to aim at the personal goals of the autocrat, whereas socialism claims to aim at the goals of the allegedly oppressed classes. In modern language, after the massive strides seen in public welfare reform since the time of Engels & Co., this is unfortunately synonymous with the goals of the angry people, the free-lunch hunters and the ones with a constant nagging fear that someone, somewhere, may be having some fun.

Yet if being a socialist these days means being a useless interfering busy-body, then why the constant talk about Tonyism as Toryism?

Partly this was due to the early years—first impressions are always disproportionately important—and the publicised adherence to the previous government’s budget limits. Then there was the refusal to cosy up to the unions once more, flirting with the businessmen instead, rising inequality, lessening social mobility and a budget so increasingly complex that no-one could work out whether it was lefty/righty or just nutsy. There is also the question of arrogance—a belief that you know best is, when combined with actual power, quite often aligned with a desire to prove it. One would think, given the poor proofing witnessed over the years, that this train of thought wasn’t especially sustainable. One would be wrong, for delusions die hard, on both sides of the House.

Recently however, as the phosphorous fumes have made Tony increasingly dizzy, things have changed; Blairism has come into its own. I would blame the terrorists, but that would mean that they’ve succeeded in changing our way of life, which they haven’t, except they have, but they actually haven’t. At least I think that’s the official line.

Despite pretty much admitting that there isn’t really a way to fight these terrorist chaps, the government, rather than ceding to this, has taken a novel stance, known in Westminster as ‘The Somme Solution’. Details are, as ever, hazy, but the gist goes something like this:

When you can’t see an enemy, or work out a decent way to attack it, fire off every type of weapon you can think of in any direction open to you for as long as you can get away with. This should mess up the landscape to such an extent that absolutely anything is now possible. This allows a government to operate on (and in the process reveals) its default setting. New Labour’s default setting appears, therefore, to be something like “do as I we say or die”, a grand “we know what’s best for you, so sit back and watch”. And you can’t get much more socialistic than that.

Liberty, if it means anything, it seems, is the right to tell people to give theirs up.

28 comments
  1. Andrew said:

    There’s nothing worse than completely agreeing with a post, as it means one is compelled to provide an insipid and crawly ‘me-too’ comment, or to commit the most fundamental of crimes for a blogger/commenter, to remain silent. But I agree. Wonderful writing. Is this the first step towards the oft-denied Lib Dem-Tory coalition?

  2. Paul said:

    Ta Andrew. No idea about the LD/Tory coalition – guess we’ll have to wait for the hung parliament in 2009 – but it is raising it’s head once more, thanks to Mr Mount in the Telegraph.

    I want to see it for no other reason than it’d seriously piss off the majority of members of all three parties, and in politics, the Schadenfraude doesn’t come much more weighty than that :)

    That, and we might get some sort of electoral reform, of course ;)

  3. Katherine said:

    Andrew, you keep agreeing with people. Most disconcerting.

  4. I agree with Andrew.

  5. I agree with Paul, Andrew, Katherine and Dave.

  6. Phil E said:

    New Labour’s default setting appears, therefore, to be something like “do as I we say or die”, a grand “we know what’s best for you, so sit back and watch”. And you can’t get much more socialistic than that.

    Actually you can’t get much less socialist than that, but don’t let accuracy (or consistency) get in the way of a good rant.

    If socialism means anything it means economic democracy – socialism, in other words, means more democracy rather than less. To say that Stalinism – or Fabianism – represents true socialism is a bit like saying that Franz-Josef Strauss represents true Christianity; ideologies do have meanings, regardless of how their names are (mis)used. As for saying that New Labour represent socialism, on the grounds that… er, what were the grounds again? Von Mises didn’t like socialists, you don’t like New Labour, ergo… run that past me again. (Better still, don’t.)

    Still, thanks for not invoking Orwell. I would have found that quite irritating.

  7. With regard to the Lib Dems: as one who has, in the recent past worked at Cowley St. it is my feeling that, firstly, winning any significant degree of power is the worst thing that many of their members could conceive of and, secondly, that under PR, the party would come apart like a Terry’s Chocolate Orange.

    The party is composed of a Left wing, who define themselves as ‘not Labour’ and a Right wing that are ‘not Tories’.

    Having failed to shave off many of New Labour’s votes by running a pinkish flag up to half mast, they are now hurriedly furling it and going after moderate Tories.

    The problem is, that the swing vote is a pretty static proportion of the electorate, which is why all three party’s policies are tending to converge on their vested interests.

  8. Rob said:

    What the heck is “economic democracy”? I’m afraid Phil E’s in other words bit doesn’t help much either “socialism” he claims, ” means more democracy rather than less”.

    Clueless.

  9. dearieme said:

    I agree with Rob.

  10. Phil E said:

    What the heck is “economic democracy”?

    Control of the economy by working people. Hence: more democracy rather than less. Socialism as a political principle has nothing to do with the authoritarian busybodyism Paul’s talking about, which is rather more typical of Fascism than of any left-wing school of thought.

  11. Paul said:

    “Economic democracy”, as I understand it, is a bit like normal democracy – the few will always have more than the many, the many are jealous, they gang together and grab some of the few’s pie for themselves… (“Democracy, like Puritanism, is immovably grounded upon the inferior man’s hatred of the man who is having a better time.”)… ok, bit crude… (although actually far more applicable to ‘economic democracy’ than ‘social democracy’ – rights vs earnings an all that)…

    “Von Mises didn’t like socialists, you don’t like New Labour, ergo… run that past me again. (Better still, don’t.)”

    I’m not sure ‘not liking’ is the correct phrase – if you read ‘Socialism’ he has a lot of respect for the aims and goals of Socialism, and understands why they remain so popular, but as someone who understands history and the importance of economic calculation, he can’t conclude anything but what he does. It would be fairer to say he ‘doesn’t like’ the fact that the popular appeal of Socialism (as he knew it then) so easily triumphed over the practical implications that he was in a position to lecture the world on…

    Either way, you can’t really read anything into my own personal views on this – it was so obviously a one-sided, largely flippant and manifestly un-watertight argument – but balancing it out a bit just seemed a bit dull :). Rather than never letting ‘accuracy’ get in the way of ‘a good rant’ (which this really wasn’t), I like to never let politics get in the way of my own selfish amusement, and crazy ideological nonsense is nothing if not amusing. Perhaps that makes me a fascist after all ;)

    In the sphere of economics though (and Socialism is an economic thingy), it is (logically) interference – a govt that believes it knows the value of stuff better than ‘the people’ (or ‘the market’) knows the value of stuff (and yes, I know markets are horribly imperfect, some people get ‘more money votes’ etc etc). In that respect, one could easily argue that ‘economic democracy’ is better expressed by capitalism. But look what I’ve done – I’ve started to contruct a proper sort of argument, and I could really do with staying awake this morning… :)

    And am I allowed to invoke Orwell so long as I disagree with him?

    Let’s see:

    “The mass of the rich and the poor are differentiated by their incomes and nothing else, and the average millionaire is only the average dishwasher dressed in a new suit.”

    ;)

  12. Rob said:

    Thanks Phil for filling us in about your preferred form of “democracy”. Are we to assume that all of those people unfortunate enough to be unable to work through illness, disability, old age etc. are to be disenfranchised?

  13. Phil E said:

    Rob – don’t be absurd. Under socialism everyone will be able to work, whether they want to or not, and everyone will receive a fair share of the product, and will be allowed to give it back if it’s something they don’t like. All except women, who won’t work and won’t receive anything – as it is written, “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”.

  14. Jarndyce said:

    Under socialism everyone will be able to work, whether they want to or not, and everyone will receive a fair share of the product

    Well, that’s the hard bit sorted, now for the easy bit… putting it into practice… ;-)

    Aw, Phil, ye know I’m just a ribbin’ ya…

  15. Phil E said:

    Ah, but that’s the thing – under socialism there will be no difference between theory and practice. HTH.

  16. Paul said:

    Ah, but that’s the thing – under socialism there will be no difference between theory and practice

    Ah, come on, there’s a small difference between ‘pretty but unworkable’ and ‘inevitably horribly abused’ ;)

    Seriously though, if you haven’t already, read the book linked to above (LvM) and counter it – if done successfully you will win a Nobel. (N.B. still being serious)

  17. Paul said:

    p.s. mention John Dunn in doing so, and the Vietnamese firing squad awaits :)

  18. Meaders said:

    …if done successfully you will win a Nobel.

    Pfffttt… von Mises, like yourself, assumes a version of “socialism” that, as Phil E has attempted to demonstrate, excludes other, more democratic versions. It’s very easy to demonstrate that top-down central-planning socialism will, under certain conditions, not function in any socially useful way; it’s equally easy, of course, to demonstrate the same about the free market.

    But after the collapse of social democracy in the West, and Stalinism in the East, to start parading top-down central-planning socialism around as if it were the challenge to free market capitalism is to set up an almighty straw man. Socialism, if it’s going to have any relevance at all in the next century, will have to escape both those legacies. It will need to be socialism from the bottom-up, built – like Phil says – on economic democracy. Anything else ain’t going to wash. (Hal Draper’s ’60s pamphlet, The Two Souls of Socialism, is quite brilliant on this, if anyone’s interested.)

  19. Paul said:

    von Mises, like yourself, assumes a version of “socialism” that, as Phil E has attempted to demonstrate, excludes other, more democratic versions.

    To be fair(er) to vM, when he was writing, he was writing about the Socialism that was about at the time… i.e. the idea of a planned economy. As for me, I wasn’t basing any argument on a completely planned economy (that would surely completely degrade any thread of argument, flippant or otherwise). I was merely using the principle of interference as the base for the verbal vomit. The principles remain apt.

    But either way, it boils down to the old argument of price-setting – do we want a single entity to do it, or the nearest approximation to ‘the people’ that we have to do it? Obviously we want something in between. Apparently the more ‘democratic’ method leans towards the former, which is why, I take it, Phil E’s definition struck people as a little odd.

  20. Phil E said:

    it boils down to the old argument of price-setting – do we want a single entity to do it, or the nearest approximation to ‘the people’ that we have to do it? Obviously we want something in between. Apparently the more ‘democratic’ method leans towards the former, which is why, I take it, Phil E’s definition struck people as a little odd.

    Can you cite the part where I talk (unironically) about the state – or any other ‘single entity’ – being responsible for price-setting? Talking about socialism these days is a bit like being a Quaker with an audience of atheists – people assume you’re in favour of things which you actually oppose as much as they do, and carry on assuming it even after you’ve told them otherwise.

    As for ‘the principle of interference’, I think you’ll find there was a fair bit of that going on under Hitler, Franco and Peron, and very much for the supposed good of the people rather than for the benefit of the rulers. If you want to call New Labour authoritarian or argue that it has totalitarian tendencies, I won’t object. Come to that, if you want to go all the way and call the buggers Fascists I won’t be queueing up to complain. But ‘socialist’… I don’t think so.

  21. Paul said:

    I never suggested you did – I posited the two extremes and said yours leaned towards the former. The point, if any, that I was making, was that ‘economic democracy’ is a pretty silly term, one that’s as horribly subjective and ultimately pointless as any other ideological hogwash.

    Just as you get angry/annoyed/mildly aggrieved that the definition of Socialism is still grounded in the collective ownership of the means of production, there are probably others who would take offence to it not being… Ah the joys of pointless nit-picking… where would politics be without it? :)

  22. Gregg said:

    The point, if any, that I was making, was that ‘economic democracy’ is a pretty silly term, one that’s as horribly subjective and ultimately pointless as any other ideological hogwash.

    To be fair, it’s nowhere near as silly, subjective or pointless as the term, “free market”, and significantly less ironic.

  23. Gregg said:

    Some people will at this point, no doubt, claim I’ve confused socialism with authoritarianism. Maybe I have: the logical conclusions of both aren’t all that far apart.

    The problem with this notion is that it comes back to what you said earlier in the post (and dismissed as crude and largely wrong) – that all politics is socialism. Taking away one freedom or another for little observable purpose is one of the things Labour learnt it had to do to get back into power, one of the things it learnt from Thatcher – Tonyism is constantly and consistently seen as Toryism, Blairism as Thatcherism, as much because of its stupid authoritarian tendencies as its stupid economic ones. The Tories have always been the more authoritarian of the two parties on offer – going right back to the 1680s – and if that’s no longer the case (and it’s by no means certain at the moment which party has the edge), it’s not because of any lingering vestiges of socialism in Labour, but because New Labour is so thoroughly modelled on the Tory Party.

    You suggest that there’s a “liberal-conservative”, or at least non-socialist, stream that is less authoritarian, but this simply isn’t the case, as anyone who was conscious between 1979 and 1997, or has bothered examining the policies of the other parties, or has any knowledge of the history and evolution of socialism, can tell you. In terms of modern party politics, there is sometimes a bit of variation in precisely how a party is or intends to be authoritarian, but it all boils down to the same thing. Socialism is as near as politics gets to being libertarian, to increasing liberty (because it reduces and dissolves hierarchical structures). Scrap government altogether in some utopian Ayn Rand wet dream, and all you’ll do is enslave everyone to a handful of plutocrats and warlords – which is, after all, how things were before democracy came along – and those who advocate the abolition of government, consciously or not, advocate a system whereby the poor would (once again) be entirely subject to the authority of the rich.

    The collective ownership of the means of the production (which is likely to become the dominant economic framework, in the UK and globally, in the next 10 or 15 years – what with the past three decades having proved Mises and his ilk profoundly wrong on just about every substantive point they ever made) is the only way to achieve self-ownership, to be free. Whether that ownership follows the pattern it followed before (of central planning and indirect control), or whether it follows direct worker control (either through democratic measures imposed by government, or through the evolution of shareholding and worker participation in management), socialism is the future (because capitalism simply isn’t sustainable) and will inevitably increase liberty. If someone else owns the means by which I make a living, then that person effectively owns me; only by owning an equal share in those means am I free from being owned myself. Pace Mises, socialism is what it has always been: the road out of serfdom.

  24. Paul said:

    You suggest that there’s a “liberal-conservative”, or at least non-socialist, stream that is less authoritarian, but this simply isn’t the case, as anyone who was conscious between 1979 and 1997, or has bothered examining the policies of the other parties, or has any knowledge of the history and evolution of socialism, can tell you.

    Why do people insist on sullying things with party-politics? I would never ascribe by hasty definition of what I classed as liberal-conservatism to any govt that I have any knowledge of. It’s impossible: the urges that put someone into power are not compatible with the urge to leave people the fuck alone.

    Socialism is as near as politics gets to being libertarian, to increasing liberty (because it reduces and dissolves hierarchical structures)

    More with the labels… there are about a million arguments in that one little statement, and if Amartyr Sen can’t conclude on any of them, I’m guessing no one can. Socialism has never (can never) dissolve hierarchical structures, except in terms of replacing one structure with another one. Tell people what to do and they’ll revolt, whether the person telling them what to do is an all-seeing God who knows what’s best for them or not.

    The collective ownership of the means of the production (which is likely to become the dominant economic framework, in the UK and globally, in the next 10 or 15 years – what with the past three decades having proved Mises and his ilk profoundly wrong on just about every substantive point they ever made) is the only way to achieve self-ownership, to be free.

    Beautiful. No, really. However, before I accept this, I want some evidence. As I said to Phil E – an actual thorough refutation of what is contained in the vM link above (only needs slight modernisation) wins you a Nobel. Personally, if I had the resources inside me to win such a thing, I’d go and do it. It’d look well good on the CV :)

    because capitalism simply isn’t sustainable

    Which means Socilism is? Bit of the ID about that one, methinks. (Even if the authority of Marx is a tad superior to the authority of whichever group of chaps wrote the Bible).

    But hey, I’m bored of this: I spent far too much time at university (that would clearly have been better spent playing more football and/or drinking) writing a big ‘ol piece on whether Socialism contained the seeds of its own destruction. It bored me then and it bores me even more now. (And, presumably, this whole semi-semantical debate bores most people yet to sell their brains to groupthink plc.)

    You’ll forgive me therefore, if having already discussed it with some bona fide intellectual lefty-luminaries, I continue to be somewhat flippant wit y’all.

    Have a nice day peeps :D

  25. Paul said:

    To be fair, it’s nowhere near as silly, subjective or pointless as the term, “free market”, and significantly less ironic.

    FWIW (which is obviously very very little) I’d say it was equally as silly, subjective and pointless. But, meh.

  26. Gregg said:

    Why do people insist on sullying things with party-politics? I would never ascribe by hasty definition of what I classed as liberal-conservatism to any govt that I have any knowledge of.

    It might help if you came with a term that didn’t utilise the names of two political parties – and didn’t embrace two concepts (liberalism and conservatism) that have never, outside the less than honest rhetoric of some very fringe figures, been associated with the notions you’re trying to define.

    More with the labels… there are about a million arguments in that one little statement, and if Amartyr Sen can’t conclude on any of them, I’m guessing no one can. Socialism has never (can never) dissolve hierarchical structures, except in terms of replacing one structure with another one.

    If you don’t think socialism can, do you think anything can? Socialism went a very long way to dissolving hierarchical structures, in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, during the C20th. Applied, perhaps differently, certainly more rigorously, it can go further, it can go all the way. A system of economic and social co-operation does not require hierarchies, and I don’t believe human nature does either.

    Tell people what to do and they’ll revolt, whether the person telling them what to do is an all-seeing God who knows what’s best for them or not.

    One would certainly hope so.

    Beautiful. No, really. However, before I accept this, I want some evidence. As I said to Phil E – an actual thorough refutation of what is contained in the vM link above (only needs slight modernisation) wins you a Nobel. Personally, if I had the resources inside me to win such a thing, I’d go and do it. It’d look well good on the CV

    I’m certainly not willing and probably not able to produce a counter-point to the whole text, but I’ll take a bit of the conclusion:

    “Wherever Europeans or the descendants of European emigrants live, we see Socialism at work today; and in Asia it is the banner round which the antagonists of European civilization gather. If the intellectual dominance of Socialism remains unshaken, then in a short time the whole co-operative system of culture which Europe has built up during thousands of years will be shattered.”

    Mises wrote this work in the 1920s. Socialism was intellectually dominant in Western Europe, the Commonwealth and the Anglosphere, at least to the extent Mises describes, from the 1930s to the 1970s. That’s not a short time. The co-operative system of culture was greatly enhanced during that period – indeed, co-operation which had been theoretical or imagined before became concrete.

    For a socialist order of society is unrealizable. All efforts to realize Socialism lead only to the destruction of society.

    Britain spent forty years trying to realise a socialist order, a co-operative commonwealth (at least in theory). Society was not destroyed until it stopped trying to do that and turned instead to Thatcherism.

    Factories, mines, and railways will come to a standstill, towns will be deserted.

    For better or worse, socialism extended the life of Britain’s manufacturing base, its mines, its rail network and its provincial towns for decades – in some cases, for the best part of a century. Without public ownership and central planning, these things would not have survived the combination of the Great Depression and World War II, and may not have survived even without those disasters (the railways, for instance, have not functioned profitably as an enterprise for about a century). The remnants that still exist, of the railways, of manufacturing, of society outside the financial and service centres of the UK, exist because of public ownership, central planning, economic co-operation – socialism. The destruction of these things (the policy of letting them die), whilst it may have brought great benefit to a small elite, has been detrimental to the majority of people. Again, Mises’ predictions did not come true when we had socialist leaders, when we were moving towards socialism, when socialism was intellectually dominant. It is only since the pendulum swung the other way that we have seen any rise of the things Mises predicted would befall Europe and its former colonies.

    Mises was a ranter who told a certain group of powerful individuals what it wanted to hear. Some of his analysis of socialism is useful (and he does make some valid criticisms), but his analysis of capitalism is a myopic fantasy and his predictions about the future outcomes of both systems have proved to be completely inaccurate.

    because capitalism simply isn’t sustainable
    Which means Socilism is?

    Not necessarily, but the pendulum will swing the other way, as it did in the 1970s, and since nothing else is on offer, or likely to be, it will swing towards socialism. And socialism is a better system. But perhaps this swining is the end of history, perhaps we’ll spend the next few thousand years swinging between capitalism and socialism, or fudged transitionary phases to each.

    Bit of the ID about that one, methinks. (Even if the authority of Marx is a tad superior to the authority of whichever group of chaps wrote the Bible).

    I don’t think so. It seems, to me, that a system based on co-operation rather than competition could be sustainable, and would not require the constant expansion that makes capitalism unsustainable. Indeed, such a system would be self-sustaining – it would not be liable to the violent shocks of the market, it would require and encourage continuing participation and so not follow the trend towards complacency. Maybe not, but I don’t see how it touches on ID. It does seem clear that history is not over, that capitalism is not the end all. (If you do want a good example of ID, though, ponder Adam Smith’s magic hand.)

    You’ll forgive me therefore, if having already discussed it with some bona fide intellectual lefty-luminaries, I continue to be somewhat flippant wit y’all.

    Of course.

  27. Gregg said:

    FWIW (which is obviously very very little) I’d say it was equally as silly, subjective and pointless. But, meh.

    But you would at least agree it’s less ironic?

  28. Paul said:

    But you would at least agree it’s less ironic?

    Depends on your views on ‘democracy’ and ‘freedom’ I suppose; whichever one you think carries more weight is probably the more ‘ironic’ statement. Bloody semantics.

    Unless I have remembered, (and most other people have quoted) erroneously, Adam’s hand wasn’t magic, it was invisible :p… which is obviously beside the point… there is as much in Adam Smith to inspire (n.b. not in the al-Qaeda sense) the ‘left’ as there is the ‘right’. Once again, always the trouble with these thinking types – people insist on pigeon-holing their asses.

    It might help if you came with a term that didn’t utilise the names of two political parties – and didn’t embrace two concepts (liberalism and conservatism) that have never, outside the less than honest rhetoric of some very fringe figures, been associated with the notions you’re trying to define.

    I figured leaving them in lowercase was good enough to ignore the political parties (who are obviously only ever ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ when it wins a couple more votes in the right places). As for the broader ideologies – back to the sodding subjective definitions. In the hasty context in which I used them, the conjoined term was meant to imply a form of govt that recognised its limits and left well alone (not to be confused with the actual laissez-faire of the past). Thanks to those pesky power-impulses, we’re never gonna see a genuine realisation of the term in the way I used it… everyone’s a Fascist/Socialist/idiot deep down :)

    If you don’t think socialism can, do you think anything can? Socialism went a very long way to dissolving hierarchical structures, in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, during the C20th. Applied, perhaps differently, certainly more rigorously, it can go further, it can go all the way. A system of economic and social co-operation does not require hierarchies, and I don’t believe human nature does either.

    Not entirely – you may be able to temporarily break ’em down, but human nature will build ’em right back up again. This is not, IMO, a bad thing. (But, please, let’s not open that can of monkeys). And ‘require’ is obv very different to ‘benefit from’. :)

    ME: Tell people what to do and they’ll revolt, whether the person telling them what to do is an all-seeing God who knows what’s best for them or not.
    GREGG: One would certainly hope so.

    And yet, if you are to implement the more necessarily punitive measures of some form of ‘socialism’ this is exactly what you’ll be doing.

    Britain spent forty years trying to realise a socialist order, a co-operative commonwealth (at least in theory).

    Ah, post-war British economic history, another of my *glorious* study areas. Duller than socialism, all told. Damn that Bretton Woods. The whole mess is, IMO, too complex to possibly even think about positing the lot under ‘attempted socialist order’. Sorry.

    Points accepted on some of LvM’s predictions… but no one has yet written a completely accurate book in this genre. The point I was getting at with the Noble quip was essentially ‘give an alternative to the problem of economic calculation.’

    Mises was a ranter who told a certain group of powerful individuals what it wanted to hear. Some of his analysis of socialism is useful (and he does make some valid criticisms), but his analysis of capitalism is a myopic fantasy and his predictions about the future outcomes of both systems have proved to be completely inaccurate.

    Don’t think he was that ranty – a vast chunk of the book is factual – and I don’t think I read it ‘wanting to hear’ anything in particular, but hell, I’ve probably been brainwashed by eeeeevils somewhere along the line :)

    But yes, his predictions of capitalism were (like everyone else’s – inevitably given the whole dynamic-ness of poltico-economic structures?) a wee bit off. Irrelevant to the whole economic calculation point though – ultimately someone has to set and constantly update the price of everything.

    the pendulum will swing the other way, as it did in the 1970s, and since nothing else is on offer, or likely to be, it will swing towards socialism. And socialism is a better system. But perhaps this swining is the end of history, perhaps we’ll spend the next few thousand years swinging between capitalism and socialism, or fudged transitionary phases to each.

    And on the news tonight: human history is, and forever will be, in a big mess. :)

    It’ll change now and then thanks to a few exceptional individuals. Fukuyama obviously isn’t one of them :)

    It seems, to me, that a system based on co-operation rather than competition could be sustainable, and would not require the constant expansion that makes capitalism unsustainable. Indeed, such a system would be self-sustaining – it would not be liable to the violent shocks of the market, it would require and encourage continuing participation and so not follow the trend towards complacency. Maybe not, but I don’t see how it touches on ID.

    I would suggest otherwise, and we’ll both no doubt claim ‘History’ as our evidence. Can’t personally see humanity standing still and starting to co-operate. Man has (and I think always will be) a competitive, weasly, back-stabbing animal of fairly insignificant intelligence who finds being a git easier than not. Might as well harness such stuff.

    As for the ID comment – it was purely a reference to the ID argument of: “you haven’t explained that perfectly, therefore you’re totally wrong; it was God wot did it.” So just as that’s clearly an insufficient answer to the question of creation, “capitalism isn’t sustainable” is insufficient as to why socialism would be any better (with, in lieu of any other evidence, Marx’s assertion as the guiding light).

    And breathe. And yawn. And sleep.