The decline of Christianity in Britain
Via Crooked Timber, I read that Niall Ferguson, writing in the Los Angeles Times, decries the decline of Christianity in Britain (evil registration required, or use BugMeNot):
* A void left in ‘Christendom’ by pervasive lack of belief may be creating a soft target for the religious fanaticism of others.
Americans tend to assume that what is going on in Europe today is a struggle between Islamic extremism and Western — or Judeo-Christian, if you will — tolerance. But this is only half right.
I agree with Ferguson that the West is on the whole more tolerant than other societies. But I disagree with him when he labels that tolerance “Judeo-Christian”. It seems to me that tolerance in the West is a recent development, coming from thre Enlightenment in the 18th century, and was resisted by the religious authorities at the time. Was the Spenish Inquisition tolerant? Are modern Christians who bomb abortion clinics tolerant? How about modern Jews who found settlements in occupied Palestine, ethnically cleansing the original inhabitants in the process? If the West is tolerant, it’s as much so in spite of religion as because of it.
Ferguson fears that if people don’t believe in Christianity, a moral vacuum will be created, and people will have no moral compass:
Why have the British lost their historic faith? […] To be frank, I have no idea what the answer is. But I do know that it matters.
Chesterton feared that if Christianity declined, “superstition” would “drown all your old rationalism and skepticism.” When educated friends tell me that they have invited a shaman to investigate their new house for bad juju, I see what Chesterton meant. Yet it is not the spread of such mumbo-jumbo that concerns me as much as the moral vacuum that de-Christianization has created. Sure, sermons are sometimes dull and congregations often sing out of tune. But, if nothing else, a weekly dose of Christian doctrine helps to provide an ethical framework for life. And it is not clear where else such a thing is available in modern Europe.
That’s nonsense, because a moral framework doesn’t need to be based in mumbo-jumbo (and Christianity is as much mumbo-jumbo as any other beliefs in the supernatural). Utilitarianism is an example of a secular, rational, moral framework. And indeed, if you look at how politicians and others debate public policy, they very often use Utilitarian arguments, even politicians who aren’t Utilitarians. So it appears that people are quite capable of having an ethical framework without religion. And if you compare outcomes achieved, societies with a lack of religiosity do at least as well as more religious ones.
[This article was originally published in Cabalamat Journal]
After living in the US for decades and being back in Europe for a while, I found the islamification of this continent as the main issue for the next fifty years at least. I feel that tolerance is more for fear of muslim terrorists for European governments then anything else. Historically Europe has always
tried to appease instead of confronting. At the time of Arab pirates europe was paying in gold to protect from piracy of North Africa, and today the EU pays
millions to the Palestinians to keep them quiet, the UK-Germany and France try to make a deal with Iran and admit Turkey, all to appease Islam. Well reality is that no matter what Europe does the ideology of violence to solve problems won’t be stopped. The problem is that diluting European societies with a failed ideology will undoubtedly weaken
the social fiber of a continent that has been the cradle of modern societies. It seems to me that immigrants getting to america are more willing to embrace the american dream and absorb the american model, that after all has produced for more then hundred years the best economic performance in the world.
In euorope cities have been converted in copies of asian neighborhoods , not integrated and harboring hostility against the host country with deadly results. If these masses just immigrate to get only the rewards of the present western economic prosperity and keep their traditional behaviors ,
failure is guaranteed ; because their way of life was a failure in the first place and produced systems which were not able to produce innovation, and couldn’t provide for the population. The outcome for europe with the present political formula is gloomy at best!
There’s plenty of hostility in American cities but is ok because it’s home grown. There’s a plethora sources of death and injury that are much more likely to hit you than terrorism. Terrorism, and fear of it, are fashionable now (and politically useful to governments) but to make the issue THE central issue for public policy is plain crazy and dangerous.
Jim: There’s a plethora sources of death and injury that are much more likely to hit you than terrorism. Terrorism, and fear of it, are fashionable now (and politically useful to governments) but to make the issue THE central issue for public policy is plain crazy and dangerous.
Indeed so.
Alex: After living in the US for decades and being back in Europe for a while, I found the islamification of this continent as the main issue for the next fifty years at least.
Perhaps. I really doubt if there will be anything like an “Islamification” in Europe, because the backlash would be too strong. It’s more likely, in my opinion, that Europeans would respond the same way they did the last time they decided to get rid of an unwanted religious minority — although I don’t think a repeat of the Nazis will happen again.
I feel that tolerance is more for fear of muslim terrorists for European governments then anything else.
Hardly. Europe’s been steadily getting more tolerant for 300 years. Remember Voltaire?
Historically Europe has always tried to appease instead of confronting.
We are talking about the same Europe, aren’t we? You know, the one that conquered most of the world, and depopulated entire continents?
UK-Germany and France try to … admit Turkey, all to appease Islam.
The way I see it the admission of Turkey is about cleaving rational Muslims (such as Erdogan) from looneys (such as bin Laden). Turkey has wanted to become more European since Ataturk, and they as making genuine reforms so I think they will get there. Also, in the event of another war in the Middle East, if Turkey is in the EU, Europe will have an advance base for operations (plus the Turkish army is quite big).
It seems to me that immigrants getting to america are more willing to embrace the american dream and absorb the american model, that after all has produced for more then hundred years the best economic performance in the world. In Europe cities have been converted in copies of asian neighborhoods , not integrated and harboring hostility against the host country with deadly results.
There’s an element of truth here. How to get communities more integrated, I don’t know. Probably it would help to insist that people in immigrant communities spoke the language of the host country. Disallowing foreign spouses unless they were well educated of knew the language might also help.
When rightwingers claim that immigration must be severely curbed to minimize the infection of Europe by Islam, are they not actually admitting that they believe Islam is a belief system superior to Western liberal democracy?
During most of the time when Islamic civilization was strong, the West was ruled with an iron fist by the Catholic Church. Jews in Christian countries generally suffered worse persecution than those in Muslim lands, and Muslims were barred from the West completely (note Spanish ethnic cleansing of Muslims, for example). By the time Western civilization adopted liberal democracy, Islamic civilization was virtually a dead duck.
To me, today’s far rightists say “Democracy cannot defend itself against Islam”, just as the classic fascists said “Democracy cannot defend itself against Communism”.
George Carty: To me, today’s far rightists say “Democracy cannot defend itself against Islamâ€Â, just as the classic fascists said “Democracy cannot defend itself against Communismâ€Â.
In fact, democracy his a pretty good record of defending itself, both by being a seductive belief system, and militarily.
I think Europeans need to grow up, Muslims are not preventing them from going to Church or having babies.
You’re not going to assimilate anybody by forcibly banning articles of clothing etc, it will have the opposite effect of creating resentment and politisizing the young early. The Spanish example of an alliance of civilizations is the way to go. Respect, through dialogue and understanding.
According to the Islamophobes, Muslims plan to take over Europe not by invasion, but by immigration, reproduction and conversion (historically almost no Muslims genuinely abandon Islam, even under pain of death).
Democracies have few compunctions about killing invaders who come in shooting, but find it very difficult to bring themselves to kill unarmed civilians within their territory – this was the point alluded to by Camp of the Saints.
DrM, I chopped the “going to Church” bit because the Christian argument is generally that the lack of babies is directly caused by abandonment of the Church. I suspect the rightwingers are reluctant to mention that it was the corporate greed for cheap labour which brought women into the workforce in the first place (working women have fewer children than housewives due to time pressures).
The same greed for cheap labour is also the reason for massive immigration in the West (including Muslim immigration). This is especially clear as far as illegal immigration is concerned – employers pay illegal immigrants less than the minimum wage and the immigrants, having no right to be in the country in the first place, dare not complain to the authorities. Read Laura Poyneer’s (aka al-Muhajabah’s) “Exploitation Game”…
I Feel muslims are tryiny to invade europe by imigration and reproduction and conversion to change for them i think the rich countries should help the poor countries so there is less immigrarion. i also feel that in the sixties people wanted to rebel agaisnt something they chose their religion as some 50’s still go to church.
*Personaly* i feel that multicutrual socictys don’t work.
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