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Comments on: Anti-hagiography http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/ Trying to make a point Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:21:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: Tom Mac http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-32587 Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:22:45 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-32587 Oh alright then, here we go.

first: um no, I don’t think i’ve ever visited your blog – but it’s a nice technique of insinuation you’ve got there.

which is of course really all your article is. Anti-hagiography is a nice title, but what does your arguement attacking Walesa rest on? a 14 word quote from Walesa himself, which says nothing beyond what most average catholics would say if asked for a soundbite!

the rest of the piece is one long attempt to smear Walesa by attacking Benedict, on the basis of 2 sentences which Walesa, for all the context you give them, could have said when some random hack thrust a microphone in his face.

another clumsy attempt at the same thing is “in a Savonarolaesque narrative, if not in methods, Lech Walesa as political liberator now needs to be recast in an image he is seldom seen; Walesa the reactionary.” brilliant – Walesa as Savaronola. so i suppose you’re casting those well-known proto-capitalists and all-round sensual hedonists the Polish Communist Party as the Medicis? the mention of Savaronla adds nothing except an air of spurious erudition and guilt by (tenuous) association.

on the subject of spurious erudition, i am of course unsure of how much you actually know about liberation theology, but to cast all opponents of it as reactionary impliles the answer would be “very little indeed”. you say “this is a man who, as head of the institution formerly known as the Inquisition, helped to purge from the Church those priests who argued that the Church had to play a role in fighting poverty and oppression.”
Ratzinger’s – and John Paul’s – opposition to LT was founded on its acceptance of the profoundly reactionary and inhumane tenets of Marxism. so it’s hardly a shock that the anti-communist Walesa would approve, is it?

what next? ah, i loved the way that your grand rhetorical flourish a la Shakespeare’s Anthony is “but Lech Walesa hailed him as a ‘good choice’.” the best you can come up with is two rather anodyne words. it’s hardly a ringing endorsement of Ratzinger’s entire moral program and worldview, is it Andrew?

also, i loved your use of irregular verbs –

I was an unwilling participant

You (ie Grass)were “coerced into becoming a member”

He (ie Ratzinger) is “a man with a Nazi past”

so much for the technique. there’s the more important point that Walesa withdrew his criticism after he heard Grass’s side of the story – quite a generous act, wouldn’t you say, considering that his intial reaction shows us how difficult the task of facing the past is, when that past involves seeing the Waffen-SS rape your country?

sorry for length – i knew it would be tedious.

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By: AndrewB http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-32024 Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:31:42 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-32024 Ah, are the person who left a barely literate comment at my blog yesterday?

I do not equate being a Catholic with being a Nazi. I call the Pope a Catholic reactionary bigot. Which he is. The Nazis were reactionary bigots of a murderously different order.

My argument was not that Grass should not be criticised – the article is titled Anti-Hagiography – but that Walesa’s criticism of Grass is not what it is being made to appear to be. Walesa’s comments, when read in the Anglophone world, carry the moral weight of a great champion of freedom. But his comments ought to be read as those of a reactionary Catholic nationalist. A man utterly unconcerned with the Nazi past of people whom he shares an affiliation, except where it is useful ammunition in condemning a tolerant left-winger.

Are you saying that Grass was wrong when he called for German’s should face up to the truth of their roles in Nazism? Are you saying that this was not an important task?

He was right. And it was important.

Understanding Walesa’s hypocrisy changes the context of his condemnation, and the moral weight he has assumed or been given.

Understanding Grass’ hypocrisy only tells us how difficult to the task of facing the past is, not whether or not he was right to make his call to do so.

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By: Tom Mac http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-31731 Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:29:23 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-31731 AndrewB has missed the point. Ratzinger has never denied his membership of the Hitler Youth (which is not quite the same thing as the Waffen-SS anyway).

Grass ha claimed for sixty years that he was in an anti_aircraft platoon, whilst preaching that Germans must face up to the truth of thier roles>

overall, the article is so lazy it would be tempting to fisk it, if it wouldnt be such a dreary task. suffice to say, i love how you make being a catholic merge so seamlessly with being a Nazi.

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By: David Duff http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-29965 Sat, 19 Aug 2006 20:59:12 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-29965 Oh, you mean “Lech Walesa offers a generous response to a nasty reactionary bigot [the pope] with a Nazi past being made the spiritual and political head of his faith” was a compliment to the pontif! Dear me, you are such a clever lot over here you leave me all confused.

‘Wowbanger’ appears to suffer from reading difficulties. I have no wish to “de-equalise” (horrid compound!) either of the gentlemen concerened. I praise them equally for being, as young men, patriotic in defence of their country. I only enjoy the ‘schadenfreude’ of seeing Grass exposed as a hypocrite long *after* his war effort.

And how is it that you can ‘converse’ with me here, Mr. Jubb, but refuse to do so on your own precious site? No, don’t bother to answer, I’m bored already!

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By: Rob http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-29513 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:54:08 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-29513 David,

typically unencumbered by fact, I see. It’s strangely comforting to find that some things don’t change.

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By: Wowbagger http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-29438 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:22:41 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-29438 David Duff – Pope Benedict is not ‘smeared’ by assertions that he was “head of the institution formerly known as the Inquisition” (now known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.) This is merely an historical fact, and Ratzinger himself has made no attempt to draw attention away from it. (Frankly, Goebbels would have done a much subtler job!!) How you or I feel about the past or present aims and methods of said Inquisition is a separate issue. As to comments, either positive or censurious, aboout youthful membership of Hitler’s armed forces, they should apply equally to Grass and Ratzinger, unless one is a hypocrite and/or is trying to score some political point. I believe the author’s point was that – surprise surprise – they are de-equalised by third parties with a political axe to grind and Grass appears to be coming off worse – a point you adeptly illustrated with your one-sided response.

Peace, brother

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By: David Duff http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-29179 Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:23:06 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-29179 Yes, I read that and it is entirely understandable and, in my view, admirable that a patriotic young man should volunteer for two elite forces in which the chances of survival were minimal. His hypocracy and shiftiness there-after will surprise no one with a reasonable knowledge of human nature, an attribute that appears to have escaped Messrs. Bartlett and Jubb, above.

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By: Katie Bartleby http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-29116 Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:37:43 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-29116 I came across a tidbit about how, while he might have been drafted into the Waffen SS, and didn’t choose it, he was only sent there because he got turned down when he put himself forward as an exceptional Hitler Youth member, to join the submarine corps…. so while technically true that he didn’t CHOOSE to join, it was in fact his second choice.

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By: David Duff http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-29046 Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:31:34 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-29046 The sight of Andrew Bartlett and ‘Rob’ Jubb spinning round in circles together like a latter-day Torville and Dean, makes for delightful viewing as they contemplate in confusion former icons reduced to the merely human.

What else did they think, in their naivetee/stupidity (delete as necessary), that Lech Walesa was other than a Catholic nationalist like every other historic Polish leader? And how quickly they leap to excuse the humbuggery of their left-wing idol, Gunter Grass, who can certainly be pardoned his youthful patriotism but hardly his 60-year old tirade against those who supported Hitler.

Mind you, I’m impressed with Bartlett’s black propoganda skills in such smears against the Pope as describing him as “head of the institution formerly known as the Inquisition”! ‘Don’cha’ just lurve it’? No? Goebbells would have done.

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By: AndrewB http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/08/anti-hagiography/#comment-28894 Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:03:11 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/08/14/anti-hagiography/#comment-28894 I don’t think that it is possible to reduce religion to that, GT. After all, a measure of Ratzinger’s (and Walesa’s) reactionary Catholicism is it’s robust opposition to the much more progressive liberation theology movement of Latin America.

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