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Comments on: A load of Bull http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/ Trying to make a point Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:21:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: British Pride in a liberal nation? - Voting TaKtiX http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-36426 Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:12:23 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-36426 […] June TaKtiX12:49 am8 Comments How could I resist linking to this? Jonn Elledge: conspicuous displays of British patriotism are most likely to come from boozed up sports fans and UKIP politicians. Perhaps this is the biggest challenge to liberal patriotism: our national icons have been hijacked by the right … None of those things of which Britons are supposed to be proud relate to my experience of this country. John Major’s warm beer on the village cricket green sounds suspiciously like a world that vanished decades before I got round to being born … I’m not saying that there isn’t much in Britain’s history to be ashamed of: Suez, Dresden, and the fact we unleashed both the concentration camp and Jim Davidson on an unsuspecting world, to name but four. […]

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By: kheng http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16400 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 20:51:58 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16400 When talking about British identity, I find it strange that most people miss out two important concepts: citizenship and geography.

I am a Bruneian. This isn’t because of my race, religion, language, culture or values I adhere to. I identify myself as a Bruneian because I have a Bruneian passport. Moreover, I was born and raised in Brunei and although I may settle in the UK, there will always be a bond between myself and that land.

I suspect that most British people of ethnic origins define their Britishness in the same way i.e. “I am British because I was born ‘ere”

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By: Steve G http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16313 Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:14:13 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16313 It might, I think, help to distinguish between patriotism, love of, or at least attachment to, one’s native country (however defined), and the political ideology of nationalism. The former is probably a pretty universal human emotion. The latter is a political ideology that grew out of German Romanticism and is, for good historical reasons, very un-British. It’s the impetus that led, on the one hand, C19th speakers of German and Italian to say that there were such things as the German or Italian nation, quite apart from the various principalities and dutchies where people mostly spoke these languages, and that all the German- and Italian speakers should get together as political entities. On the other hand, it led people like the Hungarians and Irish to say that there was an Hungarian or Irish identity that was far more valid than that of being subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire who happened to speak Hungarian (at least to the servants) or West Britons. The English have never been in that position, or at least not in recent history, so have never needed such an ideology. And a British ‘nationalism’ is an oxymoron, since the whole point about Britain is that it’s a union of separate countries.

Pace Devil’s Kitchen, patriotism, or pride in your country, doesn’t involve thinking it’s superior to anywhere else. Most of us love, and are proud of, our families but few of us would seriously try to maintain that our children are superior to all other children or that our wife is more beautiful than anyone else’s. You love and are proud of your country because it’s your country, surely, rather than because you’ve actually sat down and, after a serious consideration of the respective merits of various places, come the happy conclusion that yours is the best one on offer. We British know that we’ve won the first prize in life’s lottery; we don’t have to convince anyone else of the fact (and, indeed, it’s pretty un-British to remind foreigners of their misfortune). That sort of thing is all very well and necessary for countries that, like the USA and the former USSR (and, to a lesser extent, France) are built on an idea — that all men are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, for example — which others ought to share. Britain, as are many other countries, is built on no such thing; people are British through an accident of birth or because they’ve voluntarily accepted the rights and obligations of being British subjects (a more helpful term, I think, than citizen, at least in this context) and that’s it.

Being proud of who you are doesn’t mean you think you’re superior to everyone else — that’s the sort of mistake we leave to the French and the Americans and all others, who, for whatever historical reason, feel they have to justify their existence and way of life to anyone else.

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By: Richard J http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16245 Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:18:12 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16245 And, if we get into the essence of what a concentration camp is, we find that Peter the Great got there about two hundred years earlier, when he rounded up the obstructive population of Livonia after his invasion and stuck then into forced labour camps.

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By: dearieme http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16238 Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:15:29 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16238 Half way there. Then we do reach semantics, I suppose. If by “concentration camp” you mean a place where you lock up your party’s domestic political enemies without judicial process – which was your account of the Nazi meaning of the term – then the British, and American, and Spanish camps weren’t concentration camps. If you mean something else, then they might have been, depending on what that something else happens to be. When Churchill had Italians temporarily locked up on the Isle of Man, was that a “concentration camp”? FDR’s internment camps for ethnic-Japanese US citizens? Stalin’s Gulag? The Black Hole of Calcutta? WWII POW camps? Guantanemo Bay? Robbin Island? What on earth would be the point of using one term to cover such a vast variety of circumstances when it would be the opposite of critical thinking to do so?

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By: Jonn http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16237 Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:12:53 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16237 I will give you that Britain wasn’t the first and was stealing an idea from Spain and the US (not something I knew before this debate, I’ll admit).

Nonetheless I fail to see exactly how the fact that the government of the day didn’t describe the Boer camps as concentration camps stops them from being just that.

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By: dearieme http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16236 Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:59:39 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16236 Scream: “The British were undeniably the first to do this” is bollocks too. The first to do “this” in modern times, as I said in my first comment, were Spain (in Cuba) and the USA (in the Philipines). Why can’t you accept that you are repeating a falsehood? You were wrong. No great offence, except when you fail to correct it. I I too believed, for many years, that what you said was right, but I happened to find out that it isn’t.

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By: Antipholus Papps http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16231 Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:23:37 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16231 Nosemonkey:

When you say that Habeas Corpus was passed into law by a Scotsman do you mean Charles II?

What with the Blair regime merrily dismantling every last vestige of due process and English common law, I’ve found myself clinging to a ludicrously romanticised view of England worthy of Arthur Mee. I am thoroughly guilty of bewailing that 2005 marked the end of 790 years of Habeas Corpus in the full knowledge that it was not extended to the general populace until 1679.

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By: Jonn http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16226 Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:47:58 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16226 Someone once said that all internet debates ultimately turn into questions of semantics. I suspect we’ve reached that point.

The disagreement seems to be about the definition of concentration camp. Both myself and, I think, Phil are using it in the original sense of “place where government concentrates particular section of society it wants out of the way.” The British were undeniably the first to do this.

But DM is arguing that it the British did not invent the concentration camp because they didn’t operate them on the Nazi model. Did the British intend for the South African camps to be death camps? Probably not. Did people die there? Yes (lots, I seem to recall).

But nonetheless – noone’s been claiming that the British invented the death camp. But they did invent the concentration camp. Hence the “strawman of your own devising” stuff.

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By: dearieme http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/06/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16225 Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:40:40 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/06/14/a-load-of-bull/#comment-16225 Phil E, you said “the Brownshirts spontaneously rounded up Communists, Jews, and other people the cut of whose jib they didn’t like”. That’s not remotely what the (British) army did in South Africa, so your claim that there is no essential difference completely fails. My point is that you are repeating an old propaganda claim which is simply false. (The camps in South Africa proved pretty awful bloody things, but that is not your point.)

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