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Comments on: Might Israel be better off in the EU than allied to the USA? http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/ Trying to make a point Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:21:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: IJ http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3837 Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:02:09 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3837 Further to the above, you may be interested in this post and discussion in the blogosphere. The agreement at the UN in September 2005 suggests there is a lot of support for moving beyond national sovereignty in more areas.

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By: Phil Hunt http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3811 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:51:34 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3811 IJ: Should it be the United Nations system that decides the politics of the Middle East, including the nation of Israel?

I doubt very much if the UN will decide what goes on in the Middle East, or elsewhere. The UN isn’t an actor of its own accord, it is merely a forum through which nations can work together if they choose to do so.

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By: IJ http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3809 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:55:35 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3809 From the blogosphere, here

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By: IJ http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3807 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:41:09 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3807 Re the international community. Should it be the United Nations system that decides the politics of the Middle East, including the nation of Israel?

Back in September, the UN were given authority to establish a ‘Peacebuilding Commission’ for the world. On the detail, the Middle East seems a good area to start – supported perhaps by a worldwide network of mini NATO’s.

Anyway, the UN have been attempting to solve the Israel-Palestine dispute for a long, long time. Some history is here.

Extract:
In its statement today [10 November], which responded to recent events, the [UN] Committee expressed concern “about the creation by Israel, the occupying Power, of new facts on the ground that include settlement expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and accelerated construction of the illegal wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.” The Committee noted that those activities contravene international law.

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By: Phil Hunt http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3806 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:06:36 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3806 Robert: The EU has a large Muslim minority that far outnumbers the Jewish community in Europe and is dependent on Middle Eastern oil as well as being next door to the Muslim world. All of which means that the EU is never going to be as sympathetic to Israeli interests as the US.

Let’s take these points one by one. (1) there are maybe 15 million Muslims in the EU out of a total population of 450 million – 3% of the total. They are not electorally important enough to matter much to politicians. (2) the USA like the EU is dependent on imported oil. (3) there are fewer Jews in the EU than in the USA. So only one of these three factors would in itself cause the EU to be less sympathetic to Israel than the US is.

And if Israel were in the EU, Europeans would be much more sympathetivc to Israeli concerns, particularly at the political level.

Israel would not trust Europe to defend its security. There is the memory of the Holocaust which took place in the centre of Europe. Europe is historically the centre of anti-semitism.

Anti-Jewish bigotry didn’t originate in Europe. Consider that bigotry exists in all societies and that any identifiable group of people is hated by *someone*. Therefore, since Jews originally became an identifiable group in the middle east, that’s where anti-Jewish bigotry originated (and is strongest — when’s the last time a European head of state called for Israel to be destroyed?

Regarding Israel trusting Europe, if they joined the EU they would probably be joining NATO too (most countries that have joined one organisation in recent years have joined the other). So they would also be allied with the USA and other NATO countries.

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By: IJ http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3802 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:22:11 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3802 “the EU is never going to be as sympathetic to Israeli interests as the US.”

Sympathetic or impartial? It depends what stance the Israeli Government insists on. If left to its own devices, the EU might prefer instead a speedier settlement of the ages old dispute which is agreeable to the international community – the website

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By: Robert http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3797 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 18:04:45 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3797 The EU has a large Muslim minority that far outnumbers the Jewish community in Europe and is dependent on Middle Eastern oil as well as being next door to the Muslim world. All of which means that the EU is never going to be as sympathetic to Israeli interests as the US.

Israel would not trust Europe to defend its security. There is the memory of the Holocaust which took place in the centre of Europe. Europe is historically the centre of anti-semitism.

It’s certainly arguable that the special relationship between Israel and the USA in fact does Israel no favours since it enables Israel to get away with disregarding the Palestinians and the Arab world. Because its military technology is guaranteed to be light years ahead of its enemies so long as it has America’s support.Israel feels no pressure to make serious concessions and can get away with pandering to its extremists.

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By: IJ http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3732 Wed, 09 Nov 2005 10:52:53 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3732 “Regarding Britain’s involvement with the JSF, I don’t think we should have shelled out any hard cash unless we got some pretty explicit assurances about what aircraft we’d be getting at the end of the day”.

Some more information on the contract is here. The key weakness is that checks and balances on public spending are few.

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By: Phil Hunt http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3724 Wed, 09 Nov 2005 02:41:54 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3724 IJ, as the interviewww on the radio braodcast says: “the problem with co-operation with the United States is you will never be an equal partner, ever,
in which case they will never really take account of what you want”.

Indeed so. The guy has hit the nail on the head.

Regarding Britain’s involvement with the JSF, I don’t think we should have shelled out any hard cash unless we got some pretty explicit assurances about what aircraft we’d be getting at the end of the day, with the contract including penalty clauses if the USA reneged on it, or the aircraft was late. If the USA wasn’t prepared to sign such a contrct, then Britain shouldn’t have got involved with the development work?

The interview also talks about what Britain shoudl do if there are problems with the F-35. Options include the American F/A-18, the French Rafale, or a navalised version of the Typhoon. my understanding is that a navalised Typhoon has been consdiered and rejected in the past, although it would have the advantage of having the RAF and RN operating only one aircraft.

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By: IJ http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/11/might-israel-be-better-off-in-the-eu-than-allied-to-the-usa/#comment-3718 Tue, 08 Nov 2005 21:48:53 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=189#comment-3718 “By suspending Israel’s participation in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program, Washington was recently able to pressure Israel into essentially granting the USA veto rights on all Israeli defense exports.”

UK foreign policy is also linked closely to the US administration’s. But today’s news suggests that timeous deliveries of the JSF are unlikely. Replacements are reported to include the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Radio broadcast is here. For more details.

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