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Comments on: Electoral Reform http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/ Trying to make a point Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:21:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: The Sharpener » Getting specific on PR http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-371 Thu, 19 May 2005 15:58:59 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-371 […]

Getting specific on PR

Judging by the reaction to previous posts here at The Sharpener, you, dear readers, cannot get enough of this electoral reform stuff. So, in the gre […]

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By: Nosemonkey http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-346 Wed, 18 May 2005 19:36:32 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-346 The same argument could be made about Eurosceptic MEPs going to Brussels/Strasbourg – a lot of the UKIP MEPs proudly announced that they planned to do as little work as possible out there, so you could again ask what’s the point?

I assume the mentality of both UKIP and Sinn Fein is along the lines of “well, by working within their electoral system they have to acknowledge us, but by refusing to participate in their parliamentary system we not only weaken it by lessening its numbers but also show it our contempt”.

But as much as I detest the likes of Sinn Fein, Paisley’s lot, UKIP, the BNP and so on I firmly believe they should all be allowed to stand – as should anyone. If you start down the path of refusing people the right to stand just because they don’t plan to take up the seat it’s not long before you could argue that minor parties shouldn’t have the right to put up candidates as they haven’t got a chance of winning.

I know that’s not what you’re saying, but by denying people a platform you often end up making them stronger – viz. Gerry Adams’ massively raised profile during the ridiculous period when he couldn’t appear on British TV without having his voice dubbed over. He had far more impact then than he does now. Censoring things makes them more powerful simply through the publicity it generates, and denying people the right to stand for parliament would be a form of censorship.

Which sort of brings it back to PR – after all, all those Tory votes in safe Labour seats and vice versa are being ignored under the present system – another form of censorship?

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By: peet http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-345 Wed, 18 May 2005 19:09:23 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-345 Thanks for the link. V interesting. I can understand why Sinn Fein would, quite reasonably, not want to take the oath, (as may other individuals representing any party, or none, for their own reasons).

However, it seems that SF would not take their seats even if the oath was abolished, the central issue for them being that they don’t recognise the authority of Westminster in NI. So why then do they even want to stand for election to a House which they believe has no authority in the constituency that they represent? Wierdos.

And what if all MPs decided not to take their seats? Then where would we be? (Better off, some might suggest ;-) But seriously, that brings me back to the argument that if you don’t plan to take your seat then you shouldn’t be allowed to stand.

Sorry to get off topic – this was supposed to be about electoral reform and PR or something, wasn’t it?

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By: Nosemonkey http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-322 Wed, 18 May 2005 11:14:27 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-322 Sinn Fein MPs are allowed to take their seats. They just choose not to, as it involves swearing the parliamentary oath, of which the following is the basic essence:

“I …………… do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law.”

Naturally enough, as Sinn Fein want independence from the Crown they can’t swear to this, and would probably argue that the people who voted for them wouldn’t want them to either.

But just because they are unable to participate in debates and votes doesn’t really alter the platform that being elected gives them by all that much – they are still, after all, such a small party that they can hardly make much of a difference. There’s a useful research paper on the oath and the Sinn Fein situation here (.pdf download) if you want to check the details.

Still, it doesn’t alter the fact that it must be insanely frustrating to be a sensible moderate stuck in the Northern Irish political system. You’re stuck with a bunch of nutters as your elected representatives, and with the current FPTP system combining with all the irrationality and macho bullshit they all spout it looks like there’s still no real end in sight.

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By: peet http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-319 Wed, 18 May 2005 10:53:15 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-319 I live in Northern Ireland and voted tactically for my second choice candidate, but it was still a wasted vote as they finished second to DUP, who had about twice as many votes.

I’m sure nobody in London wants to have to look at all those smug DUP faces either. They are an embarrassment to the large minority of sensible, intelligent people in NI.

In short, under PR, I could vote for who I wanted, UUP and SDLP would have a lot more seats, and Alliance would probably have one or two MPs at least.

PS. On another subject, why are Sinn Fein allowed to stand if they are not going to take their seats? That just means that those people in SF constituencies who did not vote SF have no representation of any kind at Westminster! Surely the second place candidate should become their MP by default.

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By: The Monjo Blog http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-107 Mon, 09 May 2005 15:07:06 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-107 UK Election, the British Blogosphere and voter apathy

This post will cover a myriad of interconnected issues. Martin Stabe reckons British blogs are irrelevant to the election. Superficially, I agree with hi

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By: Merrick http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-61 Fri, 06 May 2005 21:05:28 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-61 Wasn’t it a 1997 Labour Manifesto Pledge to have a referendum on PR?

In his memoirs, Paddy ‘Bomber’ Ashdown says Blair specifically said to him ‘you can trust me on this’.

Not one of the former Eastern Bloc countries pick FPTP when communism fell. It is blatantly unfair that a party who has most votes cast against it should have a hefty majority.

Yet Margaret Beckett says we should retain it because ‘it’s the system the British people understand’

Ah, right then. We’re just too thick to use the one everyone else has. Thanks for your confidence and respect, Margaret.

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By: Jarndyce http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-56 Fri, 06 May 2005 16:33:18 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-56 The two-round system, unfortunately, would be very unlikely to produce a result any more proportional than we get with FPTP. It hasn’t in France. Really, it’s just a single-member plurality system with a couple of bells and whistles on.

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By: Katie http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-48 Fri, 06 May 2005 11:23:20 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-48 During the campaign someone mentioned run-off voting which would keep the constituency accountability while putting an end to tactical voting, as people can vote with their hearts to begin with and their heads afterwards. I also like the idea of people having to have an absolute majority to be allowed to govern, even on a local scale. The danger is of course the bipartisan polarisation that we see now in the US…But I wouldn’t be able to stand voting for “the party” rather than “my MP.” That’s the worst kind of polarisation – people vote for a checklist ideology and not a person. Ugh.

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By: Nick http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/electoral-reform/#comment-31 Thu, 05 May 2005 16:56:02 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=9#comment-31 I’ve written at length about this several times, and suspect that I will be again this weekend, but I always think STV suffers from being grouped in with a lot of other electoral systems under the umbrella heading of PR. Personally, I think it’s the best (OK, least worst) electoral system given the nature of British politics because it actually reinforces many of the strengths of the system without the downsides of the various PR systems that are suggested. Like I said, more at the weekend, no doubt.

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