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Comments on: Culture-War not Conversation http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/ Trying to make a point Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:21:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: Best Wedding Ideas http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58867 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:39:34 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58867 Best Wedding Ideas…

I couldn’t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting…

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By: aDM http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58859 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:08:51 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58859 Maybe we shouldnt pay so much attention to these howling great attention seeking gobshites. Be they christian extremists like Anne Coulter or atheist extremists like Dawkins. Both have made weirdo comments relating to the Jews of late.

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By: Neil http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58858 Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:57:41 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58858 Still no-one has explained why this yelling has started now, when the same remark was contained in the preface of the hardback edition of his book which came out more than a year ago. The blogosphere is clearly less an echo chamber than it is a howling feedback loop.

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By: Larry Teabag http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58857 Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:31:44 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58857 Latecomer,

Whether or not Dawkins is an anti-semite is utterly irrelevant.

Irrelevant to whom? I think it’s highly relevant.

The rest of your comment I agree with, and I made similar points in the penultimate paragraph of this post.

But I don’t think it’s “irrelevant”, when discussing someone’s words, to consider (among other things) to what extent they reflect his state of mind. I think it’s just sensible.

And you’re right that his comment is a gift to real anti-Semites. I made that point myself, and have already said, several times, that I’m not defending his remark.

But racists are not the only people having fun with this all over the internet: plenty of people are jumping on it to damn him as a bigot. Given that he almost certainly isn’t one, I don’t think this either fair or helpful.

Duff provides a convenient illustration of this point in his latest comment.

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By: David Duff http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58856 Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:51:25 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58856 “a world renowned scientist and rationalist”

First, he is not “a renowned scientist”, never having actually produced any original work himself apart from the ‘meme’ notion that so delights undergraduates from the lesser ‘universities’. He is merely ‘famous’, or what we call today, a ‘celebrity’, for repackaging other men’s ideas, flogging them world-wide and making ‘loadsa’ money. I admire his ‘chutzpah’, although I gather he might not approve of that word!

And if believing that we are all controlled by little globules of protein makes one a “rationalist”, then show me the way to the nearest mosque!

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By: latecomer http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58855 Tue, 16 Oct 2007 06:06:37 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58855 Whether or not Dawkins is an anti-semite is utterly irrelevant. The problem is that now that this quote is out on the Internet it will be endlessly recycled by those who definitely are. Norman Geras has a good example in his response: calling Bush a chimp is just caricature, calling Mugabe a chimp would be racist. In the same way, to say the gun lobby monopolizes US policy is completely different in effect from saying that the Jewish lobby monopolizes it. At the best we can say that Dawkins shows incredible insensitivity in this remark.

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By: Larry Teabag http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58854 Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:13:35 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58854 That’s pretty much Protocols of Zion territory.

Yes, TDK. And that only encourages me to believe that he – a world renowned scientist and rationalist – doesn’t actually believe it.

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By: TDK http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58853 Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:50:56 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58853 There’s a difference between saying “the Israeli lobby…” and “the Jewish lobby…”. You acknowledge this point but in a superficial way. Supporters of Israel in the US are overwhelmingly non-Jewish, whereas many Jews do not support Israel, are indifferent to it or are critical within their support. Even the “Jews” who are always named tend to be secular rather than religious.

Given that the opponents of Israel are the first to point out that anti-Semitism is not analogous to anti-Zionism, it is more than unfortunate that he uses “Jewish lobby” in place of “Israeli lobby”. Since he’s arguing about the power of religion – it is central to his argument. His argument is pointless if you substitute “pro-Israel lobby” for “Jewish lobby”.

The second problem is that Dawkins doesn’t say merely “there is a Jewish lobby that influences US foreign policy along with Saudi influence and etc etc.”. Nor does he say “there is a Jewish lobby that has disproportionate influence”. No he uses the word “monopoly”. The Jewish lobby monopolises foreign policy. Thus a group limited by religious affiliation and by uncritical support of Israel is able to control, with no competitive vision accepted, the foreign policy of the US. Ability to control world affairs through mysterious means is a standard trope of anti-semitism. That’s pretty much Protocols of Zion territory.

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By: The Sharpener » Blog Archive » Conversing not culture-warring http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58849 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:48:45 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58849 […] November 2005 October 2005 September 2005 August 2005 July 2005 June 2005 May 2005 « Culture-War not Conversation | home | October 13th, 2007 Conversing not culture-warring by […]

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By: Peter Risdon http://sharpener.johnband.org/2007/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58848 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:46:34 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2007/10/10/culture-war-not-conversation/#comment-58848 An unfortunate phrase doesn’t make Dawkins an anti-Semite; in fact, I’m sure he’s the sort of decent man who’d have a couple of German Jewish kids in his spare room, if this were 1941.

The problem is that he mixes a particular political orientation into all his work, nowadays (he didn’t in the past, and I suspect his wife has influenced him in this). He was one of the emailers in that wonderful backfiring Guardian attempt to influence Ohio voters during the last US presidential election. He swipes pointlessly at Bush in a book about atheism. He focusses on extreme Christianity when that really isn’t our main problem right now, chez the religious world.

The suspicion is that he is so accustomed to hearing remarks that really are anti-semitic, from a part of the left that has become seriously infected with this disease, that when this remark of his just slipped out he didn’t realise how it might sound to the rest of the world.

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