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Comments on: Critical Thinking http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/ Trying to make a point Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:21:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: Thomas http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57850 Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:40:42 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57850 congratulations on the digg. It was a great post and I’m glad it got all the attention it did.

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By: Garry http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57755 Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:36:42 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57755 Sorry chris, having read that back, I realise that my bit about the Tamils sounded really sarcastic and that I’d missed your point. That wasn’t my intention. (Got a nasty cold and having trouble communicating this week.)

I see what you’re saying and again, I’m not disputing that these bombers claim to be acting in the cause of Islam. What I’m saying is that we should spend more time studying what causes people take up these causes (if you see what I mean) in this particular way .

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By: chris http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57747 Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:18:59 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57747 The Tamils are mostly Hindu, I included them as the Tamil Tigers have committed by far the most suicide attacks of all the groups mentioned, in what they call the cause of their homeland. However the vast majority (I believe there was some use of suicide by Christian groups during the Lebanese Civil War) of the suicide attacks that are likely to affect anybody outside the Tigers area of operation, such as here in Britain, are by Muslims who will claim to be doing them in part because of Islam.

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By: Garry http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57742 Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:21:21 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57742 Chris, those are good points. I should again stress that I’m not denying that belief in a version of Islam plays a part in this.

I’d put it this way. What you’ve described is the end result of a process of radicalisation. What I’m saying is that we should be paying more attention to the underlying causes of that process. To say that Islam is the primary cause, given the fact that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not become suicide bombers, seems to me to be unsatisfactory.

BTW, a minor point but I believe the Tamils are mostly Hindus.

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By: Garry http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57740 Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:37:40 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57740 Monjo, thanks for that interesting view but I think you may have missed the point.

Consider it this way; what causes someone to take cannabis? Perhaps it is dissatisfaction with their life or an inability to come to terms with the world they live in. Perhaps this same dissatisfaction (probably on a greater scale) is also what causes people to take heroin . Perhaps this is the reason for the relationship between cannabis and heroin consumption. If this is true, the relationship between cannabis and heroin use is not causal; the use of cannabis does not cause people to use heroin. Rather, the same underlying causes are present in both cases. What appears obvious, that the use of cannabis causes some people to then use heroin, is actually obscuring the underlying truth.

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By: chris http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57739 Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:11:26 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57739 Those corrolations are not the only evidence we have. You can also ask the bombers what they consider their motivations via the often produced statements of responsibility.

This will almost always be something described in terms of a national liberation struggle; be it for a Tamil homeland, Palestine, Iraq, or Chechnia. The bombers may only have the most tangential relationship to this struggle (such as the British Muslim suicide bombers of Pakistani decent in Isreal) but there is almost always something like that.

There is also often (but not always) references to Islam. Especially when their connection to whatever liberation movement they are supporting is rather obscure. Such as the British Muslim suicide bombers of Pakistani decent in Isreal to link themselves with the Palestinians. Or the British Muslim suicide bombers in Britian to link themselves with just about every Muslim fight worldwide.

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By: Monjo http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57731 Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:19:26 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57731 Well Garry your argument is a little silly. There’s the extreme feminist view that because all rapists have a penis, that all people with a penis (men) are rapists. Heck the extreme feminist view was that all sex was rape.

Going back to the drugs issue. The use of bread has also been used in such silly comparisons with causing deaths. (As has water). Yet even though 100 per cent of people who eat bread will die – they generally live a little longer than those who don’t eat bread.

So yes hard drug users may go straight from bread to heroin. But most will progress through other drugs – smoking cigarettes at 16; trying cannabis at University… These are clear documented patterns that are more than incidental.

You are right that critical thinking is under extreme threat in this country. You have none of it. Instead you wish to spout some nonsense about causation without fully understanding the issues.

Your article is about “Logical Fallacies”, but you succumbed to the ultimate illogical fallacy – that just because something does not hold to be 100 per cent true, it does not make it untrue. So yes a lot of cannabis smokers will not go onto heroin, but as a percentage a much higher percentage of cannabis smokers than non-smokers will make the leap. Hence the notion that cannabis is a gateway drug.

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By: Robert http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57719 Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:36:29 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57719 At present, 99.9% of terrorists are muslims

Is that true though? Think of FARC and the other rebel movements in South America. Think of the Tamil Tigers. Think of the Hindus who blew up a muslim cemetary. And the IRA is still a proscribed organisation, isn’t it?

That’s before we get into a semantic debate about ‘state terrorism’ which also involves a lot of narcissts and non-muslims…

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By: G. Tingey http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57708 Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:43:48 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57708 More to the point, they are a specific type of religious believer (islam in this case)

And all religions are forms of organised blackmail, with, usually morder and torture bolted on at some point.

At present, 99.9% of terrorists are muslims.
But, they are less than 0.01% (or an even smaller proportion) of the “muslim population” ……

Erm ….

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By: Not Saussure http://sharpener.johnband.org/2006/10/critical-thinking/#comment-57699 Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:17:17 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/2006/10/27/critical-thinking/#comment-57699 I always get a bit confused with the taxonomy of logical fallacies, partly ‘cos they seem to overlap so much depend on whose classifications you’re using, but I think the one you identify here is a combination of the fallacy of the undistributed middle (cats have tails and whiskers; Rover has a tail and whiskers, so Rover must be a cat) and ‘cum hoc, ergo propter hoc’ (with this, therefore because of this).

Anyway, should anyone be interested I’ve written about it at more length at my place.

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