In other words, abandon the idea that there is a political process (liberal democracy) that can incorporate both people who think ‘we’ (Britain, the West, Europe) are at war with Islam, and people who think ‘we’ (Muslims) are at war with ‘them’ (Britain, the West, Europe). Just like, say the authorities in Belfast in 1980 or so, the political elite will have to learn to live with the fact that sections of the population are remorselessly hostile to each other, and will probably kill each other if they get the chance. Learn to live with the fact that Islamists will detonate bombs, and learn to live with the fact that white nationalists will burn down mosques. Learn to live with the probable polarisation of party politics, and the probable residential segregation of cities along ethnic and religious lines.

The trouble with liberal democracy is that it assumes a population of near-clones, who can overcome their minor differences through the political process. All the controversy about immigration, terror, and Islam in Europe indicates, that the population are nowhere near clones in this sense. The state cannot be the instrument of their common values, because they have none.

I have to say that in our exchanges here, I have not sensed you ‘reaching out’ to me! In fact, there have been moments when you have sounded, dare I say, downright militant. Perhaps there is no place in your liberal heart for an old re-actionary like me whose bleak, cold-eyed assessment of this world is that when people tell you they hate you and follow it up by attempting and sometimes succeeding in killing you, it is best to take them very seriously indeed.

One final point. I do not hate “all” Muslims. I do not even hate the bombers. To me, they are soldiers utilising the only method of warfare currently available to them, that is, terrorism and explosives (until they get something bigger!) and I give them due respect as one (former) soldier to another. None of that, however, would stop me from hunting them down and killing them or imprisoning them for life. It *is* a war and it must be fought cleverly , intelligently and with great subtlety but with equally great ruthlessness.

Thank you for the debate which, apart from your innuendo to the effect that I am some sort of Nazi, I have enjoyed.

For the latter ( extremist ‘Islamist’ radicalised young men) I’d have to look in hard-to-watch places. Universities. Gyms and youth clubs and bookshops selling extremist material which are known to locals as centres for hot-heads ( the gym the Beeston bombers was known locally as ‘the al-Qaida gym) . I’d monitor websites publishing inflammatory material to see how much was hot air, what the depth of feeling was about issues such as foreign policy and anti-terror measures and whether they were working against us by unflaming the moderate majority and making it harder to work with them.

It is impossible to cover this, so I would rely very heavily on intelligence from the local Muslim community, because this is pretty much admitted to be the best, the only hope of defeating bomb attacks planned in weight rooms and bedrooms and on trips to outward cound centres and to training camps abroad, not Mosques.

I would work closely with the Pakistani and Egyptian security etc services, and monitor all known training camps abroad as closely as possible.

I would not harrass, abuse, raid Mosques or Muslim centres or generally behave in a heavy-handed manner to piss off this priceless help from British Muslim citizens. I would maintain good relations with Muslims, act on their advice from community representatives, and rely on the frequently-acknowleged fact that the extremist Islamicist death cult is extremely damaging to Islam, and that suicide and murder are forbidden in the Qu’ran. I would leave the Mosques out of it, just because some potential jihadis attend Mosques, the damage done by assuming all Mosque attenders are potential suicide bombers is immense, and utterly counter productive. You will note that Finsbury Park mosque down the road from me chucked out the hate-preacher themselves and complained about him to the police.

I would, in short, behave a damn sight responsibly than you are advocating, Mr Duff. And this is, in fact, the recommendation of the security services, Special Branch  and the ISC and the thinking behind Project Contest.

Criminality is criminality. Conflating millions of members of an ancient and respected religion with criminals is disgraceful and stupid. There are already laws against murder and incitement to it, there are laws against fraud, harrassment, threatening behaviour and so on.

I would make the obvious distinction between Muslims and terrorists crystal clear. Everyone should be able to grasp the difference between
1.religion and
2.political idealogy used to justify murder and suicide.

 

Just as everyone is able to grasp the difference between Roman Catholics and the IRA.

I would look, Mr Duff, at engaging with hearts and minds. As I wrote in the piece above, which has provoked this debate. I would argue that the current tactics of the war on terror are in fact providing the oxygen that extremism thrives on. I would, as I have said, question the tactics of a ‘war’ on an idea that seems to be feeding and spreading said idea, and making the world less, not more, safe to live in.

I’m not sure which profile she’s been reading, perhaps something from those high-level sources in government and the security services that she coyly hinted at. I had to make do with a very quick skim through the BBC site:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/london_blasts/investigation/html/bombers.stm

“By the time he began this job in 2001, he was clearly serious about his Islamic faith. He prayed regularly at school and attended the local mosque on Fridays.”

“Throughout his time at the school, Khan’s social life revolved around the mosques and Islamic groups of Leeds, Huddersfield and Dewsbury”.

“”Their indoctrination appears to have taken place away from places with known links to extremism,” it said. The report also revealed the existence of rumours suggesting that Tanweer, along with Khan, had been to Afghanistan for “violent jihad”.”

“In Islamic groups around Huddersfield and Dewsbury, he was admired for the speed with which he achieved fluency in Arabic and memorised long passages of the Koran, showing unusual maturity and seriousness. It is thought Lindsay was influence by extremist preacher Abdallah al-Faisal, a fellow Jamaican, now serving a prison sentence for soliciting murder and race hate.”

“Much of his social life was based around the local mosques, youth clubs and the gym in the neighbouring district of Beeston, where fellow bombers Khan and Tanweer grew up.”

Well, one thing’s for sure, the Beeston area of Leeds should be top of the list of areas to be place under surveillance! All of the bombers were described as religious and mosque attenders.

So, I ask Rachel once again, now that she admits that militant Muslims are a threat; if she was leading MI5 where would she tell her officers to start looking?

And I like a good ruck.

:-D

You might as well hurl your shoes at the moon in an attempt to knock it out of the sky…

‘I think the security services should focus their resources on any extremist group that advocates violence (must resist temptation to point out this includes everyone apart from Quakers)– be it white supremacist groups, Christian anti-abortion groups, the ALF, Irish republicans not on ceasefire, loyalist paramilitaries, and yes Islamic militants.’

and

‘To labour under the delusion that followers of Islam show a greater propensity to use violence is to simply be ignorant of the vast history of violence committed in the name of the other religions mentioned, not to mention the secular religions of Marxism, fascism, nationalism and liberalism.’

Duff said ‘Quite why Rachel is going along with ‘Planeshift’ in view of her opinion that there is no war only criminal activity, I don’t know.’

Quite why you are reading posts written in simple English and misinterpreting them to say something entirely different I don’t know.

However, you live in a world where all Muslims are potential terrorists and the entire Muslim community must be put under discriminatory surveillance, ( perhaps deported or popped into work camps too?…), so clearly we are going to struggle to engage in fruitful dialogue.

A further point

‘ a blanket security intelligence operation covering all Muslim areas…’

Ahem. And if those pesky terrorists DON’T attend Mosques, don’t actually live in Muslim areas, don’t wear long beards, DO wear Western clothes, DO eat at McDonalds, DO play cricket and DO have responsible non-Muslim jobs… what then?

Oh. That’ll be the 7/7 bomber profile. Drat. And where did intelligence about *them* come from?

Hmmmm, the Mosque-attending Muslim community. Including Hussein’s own mother. And *these* are the people you want to alientate and piss off?

Not very sensible. And the police, SO13, ISC, the Home Office via Contest, all agree.