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Comments on: Referendum? Just say no http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/ Trying to make a point Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:21:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: Anonymous http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-1338 Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:48:24 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-1338 I’d just like to thank you for taking the time to create this internet website. It has been extremely helpful

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By: Anonymous http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-1300 Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:22:04 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-1300 I really enjoy looking through your website

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By: Rowan http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-456 Tue, 24 May 2005 14:16:23 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-456 Actually reading the front page of yesterday’s Independent after posting that heap of nonsense up there was a bit of a forehead-slapping moment: 9 countries expect to ratify the treaty by parliamentary vote. Still, I think the moral case for referendums still stands even if it’s a bit shaky in the face of Third Avenue’s comments, which I’m in broad agreement with.

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By: Rowan http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-427 Tue, 24 May 2005 06:21:06 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-427 I said “desire”; I really meant “intention”.

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By: Rowan http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-426 Tue, 24 May 2005 06:19:29 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-426 Hmm. After having had a look at the text of the Constitutional Treaty, I find that this is the first sentence:

Reflecting the will of the citizens and States of Europe to build a common future, this
Constitution establishes the European Union, on which the Member States confer competences to
attain objectives they have in common.

Now, does that not pretty much mandate a referendum? Without a referendum in each signatory state (if that is the correct term to use) it would not be possible to claim that the treaty has the support of the citizens of member states.

The only way (that I can see) that it could be claimed that the ratification of the treaty is consonant with the will of citizens of member states without calling referendums would be to call a general election in each member state, to be fought on the basis of each party’s desire to accept or reject the treaty. This would obviously be ridiculous and would be an extremely clunky way of ascertaining the will of citizens–especially under first past the post electoral systems.

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By: Third Avenue http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-369 Thu, 19 May 2005 14:47:05 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-369 Hew – I think we both agree on the nature of the problem. Where we disagree is on the solution.

Parliamentary decision-making is very far from perfect, as you point out. But are referendums really the way forward? My argument is that they make what is already broken even worse. They are the medicine that could kill the patient.

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By: Hew BG http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-364 Thu, 19 May 2005 13:21:56 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-364 Third Avenue,

This is a very tricky topic. You are completely correct in your analysis, but ONLY on the assumption that Parliament would actually vote against this constitution.

Were that the case, you are spot on. The problem is that this fundamental assumption is flawed. Parliament just simply would not be able to throw it out as it would very likely bring down the government with it.

The only way to reject the document is to invite a rebuttal of “No, what?” as you correctly say.

IMHO, this is a better outcome than “Yes” (for all sorts of reasons that are a totally separate topic).

Given this reality (as opposed to an entirely theoretical rejection by Parliament), the referendum is the best way to show the will of the people in this case.

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By: Third Avenue http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-341 Wed, 18 May 2005 16:17:44 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-341 I don’t think you can compare general elections and referendum

If the last election had been a referendum, the question would have been:

do you want the Labour government to continue in office, yes or no?

What would we have done with a ‘no’ vote? Referendums cannot give their results any meaning. A ‘no’ vote could be taken as a victory for anyone non-Labour, from the Tories through to the Lib Dems, Respect or the BNP. In effect, the result would be useless, as it would give no signal of where the country wanted to head. The same with the EU referendum.

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By: Simon http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-339 Wed, 18 May 2005 15:53:59 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-339 I can’t believe we’ve got to 15 comments without referring to Clement Attlee’s memorable denunciation of referendums: “a device for demagogues and dictators”, he called them.

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By: Oscar Wildebeest http://sharpener.johnband.org/2005/05/referendum-just-say-no/#comment-337 Wed, 18 May 2005 15:22:25 +0000 http://www.thesharpener.net/?p=45#comment-337 Rob: You’re right. Elections are supposed to be (in a sense) a referendum on the government. Unfortunately, a great proportion of the British public (and this is true in other democratic countries) use referendums as if they were some sort of quasi-election.

(And it IS ‘referendums’, not ‘referenda’, before we start on that one.)

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